Saturday, November 11, 2017

Chronology of the Turin Shroud: Thirteenth century

Chronology of the Turin Shroud: AD 30 to the present
THIRTEENTH CENTURY
© Stephen E. Jones
[1]

This is part #14, "Thirteenth century," of my "Chronology of the Turin Shroud: AD 30 - present" series. See also 21Jun17. For more information about this series see part #1, "1st century and Index." Emphases are mine unless otherwise indicated.

[Index #1] [Previous: 12th century (2) #13] [Next: 14th century (1) #15]


13th century (1201-1300).

[Above (enlarge): Deposition fresco in Holy Sepulchre Chapel, Winchester Cathedral[2]. Note the double body length shroud about to be placed over Jesus, in a fresco painted in at least 1220, i.e. ~40 years before the earliest 1260 radiocarbon date of the Shroud! See below "c. 1220"].

1201 Nicholas Mesarites (c. 1163–1216), keeper (skeuophylax[3]) of the relic collection in Constantinople's Pharos Chapel[4], in defending the chapel and its relics against a mob during a palace revolution[5] led by a would-be usurper John Comnenus (c.1150-1201)[6], gave an impassioned speech warning the would-be looters of the sanctity of the relics within[7]. These included, "the sindon [shroud] with the burial linens":

"In this chapel Christ rises again, and the sindon with the burial linens is the clear proof"[8].
Nicholas continued:
"The burial shrouds [sindones] of Christ ... are of linen ... still smelling of myrrh and defying decay since they wrapped the outlineless [aperilepton], naked ... body after the Passion"[9]
Mesarites' mention of a sindon, the same Greek word in the Gospels for Jesus' burial shroud (Mt 27:59; Mk 15:46; Lk 23:53)[10], among these burial linens, together with aperilepton meaning "un-outlined"[11], which is a unique descriptor of the image on the Shroud which has no outline[12 & #14]; and Jesus body being "naked"[14], can only be the Shroud, already in Constantinople at the very beginning of the thirteenth century[15], nearly 60 years before its earliest 1260 radiocarbon date[16]!

1202 The Fourth Crusade[17], which had been called for by Pope Innocent III (r.1198-1216)[18], set out from northern France[19]. Its objective was to succeed where the Third Crusade had failed [see "1189"]: the recapture of Jerusalem from the Muslims who had captured it in 1187 [see "1187"] [20]. On the earlier advice of King Richard I of England (r. 1189-99) one of the leaders of the Third Crusade[21], the route to Jerusalem should be through Muslim-controlled Egypt[22], rather than overland through a longer stretch of Muslim-controlled territories which defeated the Third Crusade. That required a fleet of boats, to be provided by Venice, to transport the crusader armies across the Mediterranean Sea to Egypt[23]. However, the crusaders were unable to raise the full cost of the fleet, so they accepted the Venetian offer that in lieu of the shortfall, they stop on their way at Constantinople, and assist in dethroning the Byzantine Emperor, Alexios III Angelos (r.1195-1203), who had usurped the throne of the legitimate Emperor, his half-bother, Isaac II Angelos (r.1185-1195, 1203-4), blinding and imprisoning him[24]. Isaac's son, Alexios IV Angelos (r.1203-4) had promised the Venetians increased trade[25] and the crusaders payment of their debt to the Venetians and help on their crusade, if they overthrew the usurper Alexios III, so that he Alexios IV could ascend to the throne of his father, Isaac II[26].

1203 In June 1203 the main Fourth Crusade fleet arrived at Constantinople[27]. In July the crusaders attacked Constantinople and breached its walls[28], so Alexios III fled the city[29]. However, Constantinople's citizens released the blind Isaac II from prison and proclaimed him Emperor[30]. This was unacceptable to the crusaders, especially since Isaac II was the Emperor who failed to support the Third Crusade [see "1189"], and so they forced Isaac II to proclaim his son Alexios IV co-Emperor[31]. But Alexios IV had been living in exile from Constantinople since 1195 when he was only ~13[32], and so he was unaware that the Empire did not have the money to fulfill his promises to repay the crusaders' debt to the Venetians as well as provide financial assistance to their crusade[33]. The crusader army, led by Marquis Boniface de Montferrat (c.1150–1207), was demanding payment for deposing Alexios III and seating Alexius IV on the Imperial throne[34]. Alexius was forced to raise part of the promised payment by melting down into gold and silver priceless icons and works of art, and this shocked and angered the populace[35]. During this time, the knights and soldiers of the Fourth Crusade were inside the walls of Constantinople, awaiting payment and observing the city's enormous riches[36]. One of those knights was Robert de Clari (c.1170-1216) who described seeing what can only have been the Shroud being exhibited every Friday in Constantinople's St. Mary of Blachernae church [see "1216"].

1204a The fall of Constantinople. In January 1204 Isaac II died[37]. Opposition to his son and co-Emperor Alexios IV had grown, so the Byzantine Senate elected as Emperor the leader of the anti-crusader faction, Alexios V Doukas (r. 1204) who then overthrew and executed Alexios IV in February[38]. Doukas was then crowned Emperor Alexios V and immediately strengthened Constantinople's fortifications and forces[39]. The crusaders and Venetians demanded that Doukas honour Alexios IV's promises but the new Emperor refused[40], so they decided on an outright conquest of Constantinople[41]. In

[Above (enlarge): "Conquest of Constantinople by the Crusaders in 1204," 15th century miniature. Author unknown[42].]

April 1204, the crusaders and Venetians captured and sacked the city[43]. Alexios V's army stayed to fight but Alexios himself fled during the night[44]. Over three days so-called `Christian' (Mt 7:21-23) crusaders and to a lesser extent the Venetians[45], killed, raped, looted and defiled Constantinople's holy places[46]. Many of Constantinople's precious icons, relics and works of art were stolen or destroyed for their material value[47].

1204b Among the stolen relics was the Shroud[48] [see "1205b" and "1216"], taken by Othon IV de la Roche (c.1170-1234)[49], a crusader leader in the Blachernae area of Constantinople[50], where the Shroud was[51] [see "1216"]. Othon (or Otto) was a direct ancestor of Jeanne de Vergy (c.1332–1428)., wife of Geoffroy I de Charny (c.1300-56), the first undisputed owner of the Shroud[52] [see "1355"]. That the Image of Edessa/Mandylion also disappeared in 1204[53], is further proof that it was the Shroud "four-doubled" (tetradiplon )[54]. The crusaders then set up a new Latin Empire, partitioning former Byzantine territories amongst themselves[55]. One of those new Latin Empire partitionings was the Duchy of Athens[56], the first Duke (or Lord) of which was Othon IV de la Roche[57], who took the Shroud there [see "1205a"]. Only about a tenth of those who set out on the Fourth Crusade from France reached the Holy Land, where they reinforced the coastal Crusader States[58] which had been established in the Third Crusade [see "1189"]. The Fourth Crusade thus failed in its objective to recapture Jerusalem[59]. Moreover, by weakening the Byzantine Empire, the Fourth Crusade paved the way for the Muslim conquest of Constantinople and the Byzantine Empire in 1453[60] [see "1453"]. A Fifth Crusade (1213–21) by Latin Christianity would again try and fail to recapture Jerusalem[61]. The Byzantine Empire would eventually regain Constantinople in 1261[62]. The Sack of Constantinople only made the rift between Eastern and Western Christianity wider and deeper[63].

1205a Othon IV de la Roche establishes the Duchy of Athens[64], taking the Shroud with him from Constantinople to Athens[65]. Othon builds his palace on the Acropolis[66], next to and within the

[Above (enlarge): The remains of Othon's palace tower (left) next to the Parthenon on the Acropolis of Athens, in 1875 before its removal that year[68].]

Parthenon, which was not then in its present ruined state[69] and indeed had been since the sixth century a Byzantine church[70]. The Shroud's presence in Athens when Othon was its Lord, was attested by Theodore of Epirus [see 1205b] and Nicholas of Otranto [see "1207"] [71].

1205b Theodore of Epirus, i.e. Theodore Komnenos Doukas (c. 1200-53), also known as Theodore Angelus, on 1 August 1205 wrote a letter to Pope Innocent III protesting about the looting of Constantinople by the Fourth Crusade[72], and in particular the "most sacred of all the linen in which our Lord Jesus Christ was wrapped after his death" which was now "in Athens":

"In April last year a crusading army, having falsely set out to liberate the Holy Land, instead laid waste the city of Constantine. During the sack, troops of Venice and France looted even the holy sanctuaries. The Venetians partitioned the treasures of gold, silver and ivory, while the French did the same with the relics of the saints and, most sacred of all the linen in which our Lord Jesus Christ was wrapped after his death and before the resurrection. We know that the sacred objects are preserved by their predators in Venice, in France and in other places, the sacred linen in Athens. So many spoils and sacred objects should not be taken contrary to all human and divine laws, nevertheless in your name and in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, albeit against your will, the barbarians of our age have done just that"[73]
Theodore later became the ruler of Epirus (r. 1215–30) in then northwestern Greece, a successor state of the Byzantine Empire established in the aftermath of the fall of Constantinople[74].

c. 1206 French priest and historian Dom Francois Chamard (1828-1908) in 1902 wrote that Othon in 1206 sent the Shroud to his father, Pons I de la Roche (1145–1195)[75] in Burgundy, northeastern France[76]. Pons then in 1208 entrusted the Shroud to the care of Amadeus de Tramelay, archbishop of Besançon (r. 1197–1220)[77], where it was kept in St. Etienne's [Stephen's] cathedral, Besançon[78] until that cathedral was damaged by fire in 1349[79] [see "1349"]. But the first part of that is impossible because Pons I died in 1195[80] or 1203[81]. So I assume that if the Shroud was sent [but see "1225" below] to Burgundy in c. 1206, it was to Othon's brother Pons II de la Roche (1179–c.1216)[82]. I further assume that the Shroud was then (presumably upon Pons II's death in c.1216) transferred to Besançon cathedral and left there by Othon when he returned from Athens in 1225 [see "1225" below].

1207 Nicholas (or Nikolaos) of Otranto (c. 1155-1235), was the Abbot of Casole monastery in southern Italy[83]. In 1205 Nicholas accompanied as his interpreter a new Papal legate, Benedict of St Susanna, through Greece to Constantinople[84]. In a 1207 letter, Nicholas wrote:

"When the city [Constantinople] was captured by the French knights, entering as thieves, even in the treasury of the Great Place where the holy objects were placed, they found among other things the precious wood, the crown of thorns, the sandals of the Saviour, the nail, and the spargana which we saw with our own eyes"[85].
The Greek word spargana usually denotes the swaddling clothes of an infant (e.g. Lk 2:7,12), but it generally means "to swathe, to wrap" (e.g. Job 38:9 LXX)[86], so it is also used of burial linen wrappings[87], and since Nicholas is listing relics of the Passion, he must mean burial linens[88]. Nicholas does not say where he had seen the spargana[89], but in 1206 he and Benedict had traveled through Thessalonica and Athens, so his claim that "we saw with our own eyes" (plural) Jesus' burial linens would more likely apply to Nicholas and Benedict seeing the Shroud recently in Athens rather than Nicholas only seeing them years before in Constantinople[90].

c. 1212. Gervase of Tilbury (c.1150 – c.1228), a widely travelled, English born but Rome-educated[91], canon lawyer, statesman and writer[92], referring in his widely read Otia Imperialia, which was written between 1210 and 1214[93], to the story of the cloth upon which Jesus had impressed an image of His face and sent it to Edessa's King Abgar V, added that:

"... it is handed down from archives of ancient authority that the Lord prostrated himself full length on most white linen, and so by divine power the most beautiful likeness not only of the face, but also of the whole body of the Lord was impressed upon the cloth"[94].
This is one of a number (see Ordericus Vitalis (1075-c.1142) at "c.1130") of altered versions of the Abgar V story which substituted for the miracle of Jesus' pressing his face onto a cloth to explain Jesus' face on the Image of Edessa, a scenario by which Jesus laid his whole body upon a cloth in order to produce a likeness of his whole body[95]. It is so self-evidently preposterous that Jesus would have in life (let alone publicly!) laid His naked body on a cloth to imprint His image on it[96], that this can only be an early 13th century reference to the Shroud, nearly a half-century before the earliest radiocarbon date of 1260, and mentioned in archives which were "ancient"[97] even then!

1216 French Fourth Crusader knight Robert de Clari (c.1170-1216) wrote a chronicle in Old French from 1205 to 1216 titled, History of Those Who Conquered Constantinople[98]. In his eye-witness account of the period from 1203 to 1204 inside the walls of Constantinople, de Clari wrote:

"... there was another of the churches which they call My Lady St. Mary of Blachernae, where was kept the shroud [sydoines] in which Our Lord had been wrapped, which stood up straight every Friday so that the figure of Our Lord could be plainly seen there, and no one, either Greek or French, ever knew what became of this shroud when the city was taken"[99].
The Old French word "sydoines" is singular and the equivalent of the Greek sindon[100], the word used in the Gospels for the linen sheet in which Jesus' body was wrapped[101] [see above]. Also, the Old French word "figure" means "bodily form"[102]. So de Clari saw the Shroud bearing Jesus' bodily image, in Constantinople in 1203-4, more than a half-century before its earliest 1260 radiocarbon date[103]! De Clari's

[Above (enlarge): "How the Shroud may have been made to 'stand upright' from its casket, for very privileged showings during the last years of its possession in Constantinople. The`doubled-in-four' crease lines identified by Dr John Jackson (Lettered A-G on diagram 1) and the particularly pronounced set of lines at point F indicate a folding arrangement around an apparatus as indicated in diagrams 2 and 3. The cloth could then have been made to rise upright, as in 4 and 5"[104].

description of the shroud he saw having "stood up straight" agrees with Nicholas Mesarites', "In this chapel Christ rises again" (see above). These in turn can be explained by an apparatus (see above) which raised and lowered the Shroud, and corresponds with persistent foldlines in its cloth. As for de Clari's:

"And no one, either Greek or French, ever knew what became of this sydoine after the city was taken"[105].
that cannot be literally true, since whoever took the Shroud (i.e. Othon de la Roche - see above) did know what became of it[106]. So presumably what de Clari meant is that, despite his inquiries as to the fate of the sysdoines, no one he asked knew what had become of it[107].

c. 1220 The frescoes in the 12th century[108] chapel of the Holy Sepulchre in Winchester Cathedral, England, were repainted[109]. In the deposition scene (see above) of Jesus having been taken down from the cross by Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus, the unknown artist painted behind St John and Nicodemus a fourth man carrying a double-length shroud[110], intended to go over Jesus's head, body and down to his feet, exactly as the Shroud does[111].

1225 The last record of Othon in Athens is a papal bull of Pope Honorius III (r. 1216-1227) dated 12 February 1225[112]. In that year Othon transferred his titles to his son Guy I de la Roche (r. 1225–34)[113] and returned with his second wife Elisabeth de Chappes (1175-1236) and his two youngest children by his first wife, Isabelle de Ray (c. 1190-1212), to his castle at Ray-sur-Saone, Burgundy[114]. The

[Above (enlarge): A wooden chest preserved in Ray-sur-Saone chateau, which is claimed to be that in which Otho de Ray [Othon de la Roche's title by marriage to Isabelle de Ray (c. 1190-1212)] brought the Shroud from Constantinople[115]. A metal plate on the chest reads (translated):

"13th century coffer in which was preserved at Ray Castle the Shroud of Christ brought by Otho de Ray from Constantinople. 1206"[116]
However, the style of the carving is late 14th century, although the bottom of the chest may be original[117]. The inner dimensions of the chest in centimetres are ~37.5 long x 16.5 wide x 25 deep[118]. This would neatly fit the 437 x 111 cms Shroud[119], if it were folded twelve times long and eight times wide, i.e. 437/12 = 36.4 cms x 111/8 cms = 13.9 cms[120]. This twelve by eight folds is a simple and economical folding arrangement of the Shroud, and since Othon's family would be unlikely to know the true dimensions of the Shroud if they had never owned it, this ~37.5 cms long x 16.5 cms wide `floor plan' of the bottom of the Ray-sur-Saône chateau chest, which is claimed to have once held the Shroud, is strong evidence that Othon de la Roche sent the Shroud from Athens to his Ray-sur-Saône chateau in Burgundy, France in 1206! It cannot have been "brought by Otho de Ray from Constantinople [in] 1206" since, as we saw above, Othon was still in Athens until 1225.]

obvious explanation as to how the Shroud got to France from Athens is that Othon de la Roche took it with him when he returned home to Burgundy in 1225[121]. However there is no evidence that Othon kept the Shroud with him in Athens for over 20 years. Moreover it would be needlessly provoking the Byzantine Empire, which knew the Shroud was in Athens in 1205 [see above], to attack Athens. But if the Byzantine Empire knew in 1206 that the Shroud had been sent to France, there would be no point in attacking Athens. And this chest is evidence, albeit garbled, that the Shroud was in Othon's Ray-sur-Saone chateau in Burgundy by 1206. And as we saw in c. 1206 a plausible explanation which fits the facts is that Othon sent the Shroud in 1206, not to his father Pons I (who had died years before), but to his brother Pons II in Burgundy!

1238 The last Latin Emperor of the Byzantine Empire, Baldwin II (r.1228-1273)[122], in order to raise money to build up an army to recover the Empire's lost territories[123], offered to sell relics in Constantinople's Pharos Chapel[124], including the crown of thorns[125], to King Louis IX of France (r.1226–70)[126]. The

[Above (enlarge): The Crown of Thorns[127], bought in 1238 by King Louis IX of France from Emperor Baldwin II of Constantinople, and since 1801 kept in Notre Dame Cathedral, Paris[128]. Today the Crown of Thorns is a circlet made of plaited rushes[129], but originally it had many thorns which were over time removed and distributed as relics[130]. The locations of many of these thorn relics are known and they have been identified as having come from the plant Ziziphus spina-Christi[131]. On the Shroud the bloodflows at the back of the head all end in a concave line (see below), indicating they were halted by a circular band which held the thorns in place, so it is possible (if not probable) that this circlet was actually part of Jesus' crown of thorns (Mt 27:29; Mk 15:17; Jn 19:2)!]

[Above (enlarge): Bloodstains around the back top of the head of the man on the Shroud (inverted), consistent with a cap of thorns[132] [see 08Sep13, 19Oct15 & 13Apr16]. Note how the bloodflows at the back of the head all end in a concave line, suggesting they were halted by a circular band which held the thorn branches in place.]

Crown of Thorns was actually in the hands of the Venetians as security for a loan of 13,134 gold pieces (solidi) to Baldwin in 1237, by a Venetian merchant[133]. Louis' bought The Crown of Thorns for 10,000 gold solidi and it reached Paris in August 1238[134]. In 1247 Louis made a final payment of 21,000 pounds of silver, in return for Baldwin conceding that the Crown truly belonged to the French king[135]. In 1248 the Sainte Chapelle, Paris, built by Louis to house the Crown of Thorns and the other relics, was completed and the relics placed in it[136].

c.1248 Henri I de Vergy (c.1205-1263) married Isabelle (Elizabeth) de la Roche de Ray (c.1235-1278)[137]. Isabelle de la Roche was a direct descendant (granddaughter) of Othon IV de la Roche (above)[138]. Henri I de Vergy was a direct ancestor (great-great-grandfather) of Jeanne de Vergy (c.1332-1428) (above)[139]. Therefore Jeanne de Vergy, whose husband Geoffrey I de Charny (c.1300-1356) was the first undisputed owner of the Shroud [see "1355"] was a direct descendant of Othon de la Roche[140], who brought the Shroud from Constantinople, via Athens, to France!

1260 Earliest radiocarbon date of the Shroud. As Ian Wilson has

[Above (enlarge): From left to right, Prof. E. Hall (Oxford), Dr M. Tite (British Museum) and Dr R. Hedges (Oxford) announcing on 13 October 1988 that the Shroud of Turin had been radiocarbon dated to "1260-1390!"[141].]

pointed out, "if the radiocarbon dating is to be believed, there should be no evidence of our Shroud ... [before] 1260":

"Looking back in time ... if the radiocarbon dating is to be believed, there should be no evidence of our Shroud [before 1260]. The year 1260 was the earliest possible date for the Shroud's existence by radiocarbon dating's calculations. Yet artistic likenesses of Jesus originating well before 1260 can be seen to have an often striking affinity with the face on the Shroud"[142]
As we have seen in previous centuries of this series, there are indeed, "artistic likenesses of Jesus originating well before 1260" which "can be seen to have an often striking affinity with the face on the Shroud." Moreover, there are many historical descriptions in past centuries which can only refer to the Shroud. As the archeologist William Meacham pointed out, it is routine for archeologists to reject as "rogue" radiocarbon dates which are inconsistent with the majority of the evidence:
"As an archaeologist, I had used C-14 dating many dozens of times on excavated samples, and found that it does generally but not always give accurate results. Most other archaeologists and geologists that I know have the same view; a few are more skeptical of its reliability ... Rogue results were normally discarded without any follow-up research, when it was abundantly clear that something was amiss ... Such rogue dates are common in archaeology and geology and they are usually not subjected to any further detailed study ... Such has been my experience as an archaeologist: I have excavated, submitted and interpreted around one hundred fifty C-14 samples from Neolithic, Bronze Age and Early Historical sites. Of these dates obtained, about 110 were considered credible, 30 were rejected as unreliable and 10 were problematic. I mention this merely to inform the non-specialist that rogue dates are quite common in the general application of C-14 in archaeology. As fate would have it, I had dealt with more rogue samples than most other archaeologists, and furthermore had been involved with several C-14 labs in investigating why some of these samples yielded results which simply could not be correct in terms of their real calendar date"[143].
Moreover, the three laboratories which dated the Shroud, Arizona, Zurich and Oxford, must know this, because they were chosen among the original seven laboratories in part because they had the most experience in radiocarbon dating:
"Of the seven labs, Zurich, Arizona and Oxford-all using AMS-made the greatest number of carbon-14 measurements per year and they were the three labs Gonella finally selected to do the job"[144].
Indeed, Oxford radiocarbon dating laboratory's Prof. Christopher Ramsey, who was involved in the 1988 dating and was a signatory to the 1989 Nature paper has effectively admitted that the "1260-1390" radiocarbon date of the Shroud was a "rogue" date by his acknowledgement in 2008 that, "There is a lot of other evidence that ... the Shroud is older than the radiocarbon dates allow":
"There is a lot of other evidence that suggests to many that the Shroud is older than the radiocarbon dates allow and so further research is certainly needed"[145].
So what Prof. Ramsey should have done in 2008 or earlier, when he became aware that, "There is a lot of other evidence that ... the Shroud is older than the radiocarbon dates allow," and should do now, since the "further research" which was "certainly needed" has not happened is, together with the leaders of the other two laboratories and the British Museum, write a letter to Nature to be published, advising that the "mediaeval ... AD 1260-1390" [146] radiocarbon date of the Shroud stated in Nature of 16th February 1988, was a "rogue" date and should be disregarded and the paper be retracted. Failing to do that is a continuing form of scientific fraud, where the laboratories' avoidance of embarrassment takes precedence over scientific truth and honesty!

c. 1265 Christ Pantocrator icon 1260-1270[147] in the Serbian

[Above (enlarge): "Christ Pantocrator Hilandar-Mt Athos," Carmelite Monastery Quidenham, Norfolk, England, July 2015. ]

monastery of Chilandari (Hilandar) on Mount Athos[148]. By my count this mid-thirteenth century icon has 12 of the 15 Vignon markings found on the Shroud: (1) Transverse streak across forehead, (2) three-sided "square" between brows, (3) V shape at bridge of nose ... (5) raised right eyebrow ... (7) accentuated right cheek ... (9) accentuated line between nose and upper lip, (10) heavy line under lower lip, (11) hairless area between lower lip and beard, (12) forked beard, (13) transverse line across throat, (14) heavily accentuated owlish eyes, (15) two strands of hair"[149], albeit stylised.]

1291 The Fall of Acre resulted in the loss of the Crusader-controlled city of Acre to the Muslim Turks[150]. From 1189 [see "1189"] to 1291

[Above (enlarge): "The Siege of Acre," Dominique Papety (1815–1849), c. 1840[151].]

the Knights Templar operated from Acre, a port in what is now northern Israel[152]. Their fortress at Acre was the Templars' main treasury[153]. When Acre fell, the Templars moved their treasury to Cyprus, then in 1306 to Marseilles, and then to Paris in 1307[154] [See "1307"]. It had been Ian Wilson's theory that after the fall of Constantinople in 1204 [see "1204"] the Shroud was aquired by the Templars, kept at Acre and then taken via Cyprus and Marseilles to Paris in 1307[155]. However, see "1119" that Wilson no longer holds that theory. With the fall of Acre in 1291 the crusaders lost their last major stronghold of the crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem[156]. The fall of Acre in 1291 resulted in the expulsion of the Templars[157] and the crusaders from the Holy Land[158]. It also marked the end of the crusades to recapture Jerusalem[159] . But although the Crusades were failures in their primary objective to recover Jerusalem, indirectly they were the largest single influence in the progress of Europe in the Middle Ages[160]!

Continued in the next part #15 of this series.

Notes
1. This post is copyright. I grant permission to quote from any part of this post (but not the whole post), provided it includes a reference citing my name, its subject heading, its date, and a hyperlink back to this page.[return]
2. "Reflecting back on this week of poems of the Passion," The Pocket Scroll blog, 19 April 2014. [return]
3. Scavone, D.C., 1989a, "The Shroud of Turin: Opposing Viewpoints," Greenhaven Press: San Diego CA, p.89; Scavone, D.C., "The History of the Turin Shroud to the 14th C.," in Berard, A., ed., 1991, "History, Science, Theology and the Shroud," Symposium Proceedings, St. Louis Missouri, June 22-23, 1991, The Man in the Shroud Committee of Amarillo, Texas: Amarillo TX, pp.171-204, 195; Wilson, I., 1991, "Holy Faces, Secret Places: The Quest for Jesus' True Likeness," Doubleday: London, p.154. [return]
4. Adams, F.O., 1982, "Sindon: A Layman's Guide to the Shroud of Turin," Synergy Books: Tempe AZ, p.27; Petrosillo, O. & Marinelli, E., 1996, "The Enigma of the Shroud: A Challenge to Science," Scerri, L.J., transl., Publishers Enterprises Group: Malta, p.179; Antonacci, M., 2000, "Resurrection of the Shroud: New Scientific, Medical, and Archeological Evidence," M. Evans & Co: New York NY, p.123; Guerrera, V., 2001, "The Shroud of Turin: A Case for Authenticity," TAN: Rockford IL, p.7; Tribbe, F.C., 2006, "Portrait of Jesus: The Illustrated Story of the Shroud of Turin," Paragon House Publishers: St. Paul MN, Second edition, p.25. [return]
5. Adams, 1982, p.27; Antonacci, 2000, p.123; Guerrera, 2001, p.7. [return]
6. Barnes, A.S., 1934, "The Holy Shroud of Turin," Burns Oates & Washbourne: London, p.53; Currer-Briggs, N., 1988a, "The Shroud and the Grail: A Modern Quest for the True Grail," St. Martin's Press: New York NY, pp.62-63. [return]
7. Adams, 1982, p.27; Scavone, 1991, p.196; Petrosillo & Marinelli, 1996, p.179; Antonacci, 2000, p.123; Oxley, M., 2010, "The Challenge of the Shroud: History, Science and the Shroud of Turin," AuthorHouse: Milton Keynes UK, p.40. [return]
8. Adams, 1982, p.27; Petrosillo & Marinelli, 1996, p.179; Antonacci, 2000, p.123; Guerrera, 2001, p.7; Tribbe, 2006, p.26; Oxley, 2010, p.40. [return]
9. Wilson, I., 1979, "The Shroud of Turin: The Burial Cloth of Jesus?," [1978], Image Books: New York NY, Revised edition, pp.167-168, 257; Scavone, D.C., "The Shroud of Turin in Constantinople: The Documentary Evidence," in Sutton, R.F., Jr., 1989b, "Daidalikon: Studies in Memory of Raymond V Schoder," Bolchazy Carducci Publishers: Wauconda IL, pp.320-321; Scavone, 1991, p.196; Wilson, 1991, p.155; Wilson, I., 1998, "The Blood and the Shroud: New Evidence that the World's Most Sacred Relic is Real," Simon & Schuster: New York NY, p.145; Guerrera, 2001, p.7; Tribbe, 2006, p.26; Oxley, 2010, p.40; Wilson, I., 2010, "The Shroud: The 2000-Year-Old Mystery Solved," Bantam Press: London, p.185; de Wesselow, T., 2012, "The Sign: The Shroud of Turin and the Secret of the Resurrection," Viking: London, p.176. [return]
10. Wilson, 1998, p.269; Wilson, I. & Schwortz, B., 2000, "The Turin Shroud: The Illustrated Evidence," Michael O'Mara Books: London, p.109; Bennett, J., 2001, "Sacred Blood, Sacred Image: The Sudarium of Oviedo: New Evidence for the Authenticity of the Shroud of Turin," Ignatius Press: San Francisco CA, pp.145-147, 148; Wilson, 2010, p.50. [return]
11. Wilson, 1991, p.155; Wilson, 1998, p.145; de Wesselow, 2012, p.176. [return]
12. Wilson, 1991, p.155; Wilson, 1998, p.145; de Wesselow, 2012, pp.176-177, 181. [return]
14. Barnes, 1934, p.53; Antonacci, 2000, p.122; de Wesselow, 2012, p.176. [return]
15. Antonacci, 2000, p.122; de Wesselow, 2012, p.177. [return]
16. Damon, P.E., et al., 1989, "Radiocarbon Dating of the Shroud of Turin," Nature, Vol. 337, 16 February, pp.611-615, 611. [return]
17. "Fourth Crusade," Wikipedia, 14 November 2017. [return]
18. "Pope Innocent III," Wikipedia, 10 November 2017. [return]
19. Latourette, K.S., 1953, "A History of Christianity: Volume 1: to A.D. 1500," Harper & Row: New York NY, Reprinted, 1975, p.411; Walker, W., 1959, "A History of the Christian Church," [1918], T. & T. Clark: Edinburgh, Revised, Reprinted, 1963, p.223. [return]
20. Oxley, 2010, p.41. [return]
21. Oxley, 2010, p.41. [return]
22. Latourette, 1953, p.411; Walker, 1959, p.223; Oxley, 2010, p.41. [return]
23. Latourette, 1953, p.411; Walker, 1959, p.223; Oxley, 2010, p.42. [return]
24. Latourette, 1953, p.411; Walker, 1959, p.223; Oxley, 2010, p.42; Wilson, 1998, p.272. [return]
25. Latourette, 1953, p.411; Walker, 1959, p.223; Oxley, 2010, p.42; Wilson, 1998, p.272. [return]
26. Latourette, 1953, p.411; Walker, 1959, p.223; Wilson, 1998, p.272; Oxley, 2010, p.42; "Alexios IV Angelos: Fourth Crusade," Wikipedia, 2 October 2017. [return]
27. "Fourth Crusade," Wikipedia, 14 November 2017. [return]
28. de Wesselow, 2012, p.174; "Fourth Crusade," Wikipedia, 14 November 2017. [return]
29. Wilson, 1998, p.272; de Wesselow, 2012, p.174; "Alexios III Angelos," Wikipedia, 5 August 2017. [return]
30. "Alexios IV Angelos: Emperor," Wikipedia, 2 October 2017. [return]
31. "Alexios IV Angelos: Emperor," Wikipedia, 2 October 2017. [return]
32. "Alexios IV Angelos: Prince in exile," Wikipedia, 2 October 2017. [return]
33. "Alexios IV Angelos: Emperor," Wikipedia, 2 October 2017. [return]
34. Antonacci, 2000, p.122. [return]
35. "Fourth Crusade: Further attacks on Constantinople," Wikipedia, 14 November 2017. [return]
36. Antonacci, 2000, p.122. [return]
37. Ibid. [return]
38. Ibid. [return]
39. Ibid. [return]
40. Ibid. [return]
41. "Fourth Crusade," Wikipedia, 14 November 2017. [return]
42. "File:ConquestOfConstantinopleByTheCrusadersIn1204.jpg," Wikimedia Commons, 10 June 2017. [return]
43. "Fourth Crusade," Wikipedia, 14 November 2017. [return]
44. Ibid. [return]
45. "Sack of Constantinople (1204): Sack of Constantinople," Wikipedia, 26 October 2017. [return]
46. "Fourth Crusade: Sack of Constantinople," Wikipedia, 14 November 2017; Adams, 1982, p.27; Ruffin, C.B., 1999, "The Shroud of Turin: The Most Up-To-Date Analysis of All the Facts Regarding the Church's Controversial Relic," Our Sunday Visitor: Huntington IN, p.60. [return]
47. "Sack of Constantinople (1204): Sack of Constantinople," Wikipedia, 26 October 2017; Maher, R.W., 1986, "Science, History, and the Shroud of Turin," Vantage Press: New York NY, p.93; Iannone, J.C., 1998, "The Mystery of the Shroud of Turin: New Scientific Evidence," St Pauls: Staten Island NY, p.126; Antonacci, 2000, p.122; Oxley, 2010, p.102. [return]
48. Adams, 1982, p.27; Antonacci, 2000, pp.122-123. [return]
49. Currer-Briggs, N., 1988b, "The Shroud in Greece," British Society for the Turin Shroud Monograph no. 1, pp.1-16, 4; Currer-Briggs, 1988a, p.50; Scavone, 1991, p.198; Scavone, D.C., "The Turin Shroud from 1200 to 1400," in Cherf, W.J., ed., 1993, "Alpha to Omega: Studies in Honor of George John Szemler," Ares Publishers: Chicago IL, pp.187-225, 192; Iannone, 1998, pp.127-128; Guerrera, 2001, pp.9-10; Tribbe, 2006, p.194; Breault, R., 2009, "Is the Shroud of Turin Medieval? History Tells a Different Story," EzineArticles.com, 18 October; Scavone, 1989a, p.96. [return]
50. Guerrera, 2001, p.9; Tribbe, 2006, p.32; Wilson, 2010, p.300. [return]
51. Guerrera, 2001, p.9; Tribbe, 2006, p.32; Wilson, 2010, p.300. [return]
52. Tribbe, 2006, p.44; Oxley, 2010, p.106. [return]
53. Antonacci, 2000, p.146. [return]
54. Wilson, 1979, pp.120-121; Drews, R., 1984, "In Search of the Shroud of Turin: New Light on Its History and Origins," Rowman & Littlefield: Lanham MD, pp.36-37, 39-40; Wilson, I., 1986, "The Evidence of the Shroud," Guild Publishing: London, pp.112-113; Scavone, 1989a, p.82; Wilson, 1991, pp.141-142; Iannone, 1998, pp.104-105, 115; Wilson, 1998, pp.152-153; Ruffin, 1999, pp.55, 57; Antonacci, 2000, pp.132-133; Guerrera, 2001, pp.2-3; Oxley, 2010, pp.23-24; Wilson, 2010, pp.140-141; de Wesselow, 2012, pp.186-187. [return]
55. "Fourth Crusade: Outcome," Wikipedia, 14 November 2017. [return]
56. "Duchy of Athens," Wikipedia, 4 October 2017. [return]
57. "Othon de la Roche," Wikipedia, 18 May 2017; Tribbe, 2006, p.32; Oxley, 2010, p.104. [return]
58. "Fourth Crusade," Wikipedia, 14 November 2017. [return]
59. Walker, 1959, p.224. [return]
60. Latourette, 1953, p.412. [return]
61. Walker, 1959, p.223. [return]
62. Latourette, 1953, p.412; Walker, 1959, p.223. [return]
63. Latourette, 1953, p.412; Walker, 1959, p.223. [return]
64. "Duchy of Athens: Establishment of the Duchy," Wikipedia, 4 October 2017; Tribbe, 2006, p.194. [return]
65. Barnes, 1934, pp.54-55. [return]
66. Tribbe, 2006, p.194. [return]
68. "File:Bonfils, Félix (1831-1885) - Athens - Propylaia 1868-1875.jpg," Wikimedia Commons, 24 February 2017. [return]
69. Tribbe, 2006, p.194; Oxley, 2010, p.104. [return]
70. Currer-Briggs, 1988b, p.4; "Parthenon: Christian church," Wikipedia, 27 November 2017. [return]
71. Scavone, 1989a, p.96; Scavone, 1991, p.198; Guerrera, 2001, p.10. [return]
72. Scavone, 1989a, p.96; Piana, A., 2007, "The Shroud's `Missing Years'," British Society for the Turin Shroud Newsletter, No. 66, December, pp.9-25,28-31; Oxley, 2010, p.62. [return]
73. Currer-Briggs, 1988a, p.148; Scavone, 1989b, p.326. [return]
74. Oxley, 2010, p.100. [return]
75. Barnes, 1934, p.55; Currer-Briggs, 1988a, p.50; Currer-Briggs, 1988b, p.4; Scavone, 1989a, pp.97-98; Ruffin, 1999, p.62; Tribbe, 2006, p.194. [return]
76. Beecher, P.A., 1928, "The Holy Shroud: Reply to the Rev. Herbert Thurston, S.J.," M.H. Gill & Son: Dublin, p.54; Currer-Briggs, 1988b, p.4; Scavone, 1989a, pp.97-98; Tribbe, 2006, p.194. [return]
77. Currer-Briggs, 1988b, p.4; Scavone, 1989a, pp.97-98. [return]
78. Scavone, 1989a, p.98. [return]
79. Scavone, 1989a, p.98. [return]
80. Online genealogies. Currer-Briggs, a professional genealogist, gave Pons I's death as "1193" (Currer-Briggs, 1988a, p.38) yet in the same book at page 50 he states that Othon sent the Shroud back to Pons I! [return]
81. Oxley, 2010, p.302; Piana, A., 2010, "`Missing years' of the Holy Shroud," Proceedings of the International Workshop on the Scientific approach to the Acheiropoietos Images, ENEA Frascati, Italy, 4-6 May 2010. [return]
82. Online genealogies. [return]
83. "Nikolaos of Otranto," Wikipedia, 25 June 2017; Oxley, 2010, p.101. [return]
84. Scavone, 1989a, p.96; Oxley, 2010, p.101. [return]
85. Oxley, 2010, pp.101-102. [return]
86. Abbott-Smith, G., 1937, "A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament," [1921], T. & T. Clark: Edinburgh, Third edition, Reprinted, 1956, p.412; Bauer, W., Arndt, W.F., Gingrich, F.W. & Danker, F.W., 1979, "A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature," University of Chicago Press: Chicago IL, Second edition, pp.760-761; Zodhiates, S., 1992, "The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament," AMG Publishers: Chattanooga TN, Third printing, 1994, p.1302. [return]
87. Barnes, 1934, p.51. [return]
88. Scavone, 1989b, p.325. [return]
89. Oxley, 2010, p.102. [return]
90. Scavone, 1989a, pp.96-97; Scavone, 1989b, p.325; Scavone, 1991, p.198; Ruffin, 1999, p.62; Guerrera, 2001, p.10; Piana, 2007; Oxley, 2010, p.102. [return]
91. Wilson, 1998, p.139. [return]
92. "Gervase of Tilbury," Wikipedia, 14 July 2017. [return]
93. "Otia Imperialia," Wikipedia, 18 June 2017. [return]
94. Green, M., 1969, "Enshrouded in Silence: In search of the First Millennium of the Holy Shroud," Ampleforth Journal, Vol. 74, No. 3, Autumn, pp.319-345; Wilcox, R.K., 1977, "Shroud," Macmillan: New York NY, p.95; Wilson, 1979, p.159; Drews, 1984, p.48; Wilson, 1991, p.153; Wilson, 1998, pp.139, 144, 255n20; Guscin, M., 2009, "The Image of Edessa," Brill: Leiden, Netherlands & Boston MA, pp.206-207. [return]
95. Scavone, 1991, p.195. [return]
96. Wilson, 1979, p.159; Wilson, 1998, p.144. [return]
97. Scavone, 1989a, p.89. [return]
98. Dembowski, P.F., 1982, "Sindon in the Old French Chronicle of Robert de Clari," Shroud Spectrum International, No. 2, March, pp.13-18, 13. [return]
99. Dembowski, 1982, p.14; Scavone, 1991, p.196; Wilson, 1991, p.156; Wilson, 1998, p.124; Antonacci, 2000, pp.122-123; Tribbe, 2006, p.30; de Wesselow, 2012, p.175. [return]
100. Dembowski, 1982, p.15; Wilson, 1998, p.124; Tribbe, 2006, p.30; de Wesselow, 2012, pp.175, 176. [return]
101. Wilson, 1998, p.124; de Wesselow, 2012, p.175. [return]
102. Dembowski, 1982, pp.16-17; Iannone, 1998, p.127; Tribbe, 2006, p.30; de Wesselow, 2012, p.175. [return]
103. Wilson, 1998, pp.124-125. [return]
104. Wilson & Schwortz, 2000, p.112. [return]
105. Oxley, 2010, p.102; Wilson, I., 1979, "The Shroud of Turin: The Burial Cloth of Jesus?," [1978], Image Books: New York NY, Revised edition, p.172; Adams, 1982, p.27; Dembowski, 1982, p15; Wilson, 1986, p.104; Scavone, 1989a, p.92; Scavone, 1991, p.196; Wilson, 1991, p.158; Iannone, 1998, p.126; Wilson, 1998, pp.125, 272; Ruffin, 1999, p.60; Antonacci, 2000, p.123; Guerrera, 2001, p.8; Tribbe, 2006, p.30; de Wesselow, 2012, p.175. [return]
106. Barnes, 1934, p.54; Tribbe, 2006, p.37. [return]
107. Stevenson, K.E. & Habermas, G.R., 1981, "Verdict on the Shroud: Evidence for the Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ," Servant Books: Ann Arbor MI, p.17. [return]
108. Wilson, 1979, p.160; Wilson, 1991, p.152; Wilson, I., 1994, "News From Home and Abroad," BSTS Newsletter, No. 38, August/September, p.5; "Medieval wall paintings," Winchester Cathedral, n.d. [return]
109. Wilson, 1998, p.139. [return]
110. Wilson, 1979, p.160; Wilson, 1991, p.152. [return]
111. Wilson, 1979, p.160; Wilson, 1998, p.139. [return]
112. Piana, 2007. [return]
113. Piana, 2007. [return]
114. Oxley, 2010, p.104. [return]
115. Piana, 2010. [return]
116. Oxley, 2010, pp.105-106. [return]
117. Piana, 2010a. [return]
118. Ibid. [return]
119. Wilson, I., 2000, "‘The Turin Shroud – past, present and future’, Turin, 2-5 March, 2000 – probably the best-ever Shroud Symposium," British Society for the Turin Shroud Newsletter, No. 51, June. [return]
120. Piana, 2010a. [return]
121. Oxley, 2010, p.104. [return]
122. "Baldwin II, Latin Emperor," Wikipedia, 28 May 2017. [return]
123. "Baldwin II, Latin Emperor: Biography," Wikipedia, 28 May 2017. [return]
124. Oxley, 2010, p.102. [return]
125. "Crown of thorns: France," Wikipedia, 22 November 2017. [return]
126. Wilson, 1998, p.274. [return]
127. "File:Couronne d'epines - Crown of Thorns Notre Dame Paris.jpg," Wikimedia Commons, 23 October 2015. [return]
128. "Crown of thorns: France," Wikipedia, 22 November 2017. [return]
129. Barbet, P., 1953, "A Doctor at Calvary," Earl of Wicklow, transl., Image Books: Garden City NY, Reprinted, 1963, p.94. [return]
130. Cruz, 1984, p.34. [return]
131. Cruz, 1984, p.35. [return]
132. Extract from Latendresse, M., 2010, "Shroud Scope: Durante 2002 Vertical," Sindonology.org. [return]
133. Cruz, J.C., 1984, "Relics: The Shroud of Turin, the True Cross, the Blood of Januarius ..: History, Mysticism, and the Catholic Church," Our Sunday Visitor: Huntington IN, p.35; "Baldwin II, Latin Emperor: Biography," Wikipedia, 28 May 2017. [return]
134. Currer-Briggs, N., 1995, "Shroud Mafia: The Creation of a Relic?," Book Guild: Sussex UK, p.6. [return]
135. Currer-Briggs, 1995, pp.6-7. [return]
136. "Sainte-Chapelle," Wikipedia, 29 November 2017. [return]
137. Oxley, 2010, p.105; Wilson, 2010, p.213; Jones, S.E., 2015, "de Charny Family Tree," Ancestry.com.au (members only). [return]
138. Oxley, 2010, p.105; Wilson, 2010, p.213; Jones, 2015, "de Charny Family Tree," Ancestry.com.au. [return]
139. Wilson, 2010, p.213; Jones, 2015, "de Charny Family Tree," Ancestry.com.au. [return]
140. Piana, 2007; Oxley, 2010, p.105; Wilson, 2010, p.213; Jones, 2015, "de Charny Family Tree," Ancestry.com.au. [return]
141. Wilson, 1998, pp.6-7 & pl.3b. [return]
142. Wilson, 1998, p.141. [return]
143. Meacham, W., 2005, "The Rape of the Turin Shroud: How Christianity's Most Precious Relic was Wrongly Condemned and Violated," Lulu Press: Morrisville NC, pp.53-54. [return]
144. Gove, H.E., 1996, "Relic, Icon or Hoax?: Carbon Dating the Turin Shroud," Institute of Physics Publishing: Bristol & Philadelphia, p.157. [return]
145. Ramsey, C.B., 2008, "Shroud of Turin," Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit, 23 March, Version 152, Issued 16 June 2015. [return]
146. Damon, 1989, p.611. [return]
147. "Jesus Christ Pantocrator 1260-1270," Pinterest, n.d. [return]
148. Antonacci, 2000, p.127; Tribbe, 2006, p.80. [return]
149. Wilson, I., 1978, "The Turin Shroud," Book Club Associates: London, p.82e. [return]
150. "Siege of Acre (1291)," Wikipedia, 7 December 2017. [return]
151. "File:SiegeOfAcre1291.jpg," Wikimedia Commons, 13 June 2017. [return]
152. Antonacci, 2000, p.147. [return]
153. Brent, P. & Rolfe, D., 1978, "The Silent Witness: The Mysteries of the Turin Shroud Revealed," Futura Publications: London, p.66; Antonacci, 2000, p.147. [return]
154. Wilson, 1979, pp.189, 258; Morgan, R., 1980, "Perpetual Miracle: Secrets of the Holy Shroud of Turin by an Eye Witness," Runciman Press: Manly NSW, Australia, p.39; Antonacci, 2000, p.147; Tribbe, 2006, p.33. [return]
155. Wilson, 1978, Map inside front cover; Wilson, 1979, pp.189, 259. [return]
156. "Siege of Acre (1291)," Wikipedia, 7 December 2017. [return]
157. Currer-Briggs, 1988b, p.6. [return]
158.Wilson, 1998, p.208. [return]
159. Latourette, 1953, p.412; "Siege of Acre (1291)," Wikipedia, 7 December 2017. [return]
160. Walker, 1959, p.224. [return]

Posted 11 November 2017. Updated 30 Ocober 2022.

1 comment:

Stephen E. Jones said...

I deleted this comment below because I considered it to be too `lightweight' (and therefore "substandard") for me to waste my very scarce time (see my 04 Feb17 why) to respond to it.

But then I realised that that is precisely the point! It is too `lightweight' a response by Prof. Ramsey, so I am responding to it this way. (Blogger does not allow the posting of deleted comments).

>Anonymous
>
>>the "further research" which was "certainly needed" has not happened
>
>No. Further research were made and confirmed the original results.
>
>" It is important that we continue to test the accuracy of the original radiocarbon tests as we are already doing." Christopher Ramsey

Ramsey gives no details. If the three laboratories ("we") had "test[ed] the accuracy of the original radiocarbon tests" after 2008 it would have been published in a scientific journal, but to my knowledge (and I have been blogging here about the Shroud since 2007) there have been no such results published.

And Prof. Ramsey would have updated his 2008 web page with the details of the test and a link to it, but doesn't.

Besides, even if the three (or even one of the three) laboratories had "test[ed] the accuracy of the original radiocarbon tests" after 2008, it would not have addressed the fact, admitted by Ramsey, that, "There is a lot of other evidence that ... the Shroud is older than the radiocarbon dates allow," which is what makes the 1260-1390 radiocarbon date of the Shroud a "rogue" date:

"Contamination, reweaving or fraud: three potential sources of error, any one of which could have caused the incorrect carbon dating of the Shroud. But can we legitimately reject the carbon-dating result without determining exactly what went wrong? Of course we can. Archaeologists routinely dismiss 'rogue' radiocarbon dates out of hand. The success of a carbon-dating result should never be declared unilaterally; it is always measured against other evidence. The 1988 test may therefore be declared null and void, even though, without further direct study of the Shroud, it is unlikely we will ever be able to say definitively what went wrong." (de Wesselow, T., 2012, "The Sign: The Shroud of Turin and the Secret of the Resurrection," Viking: London, p.171).

Except that I claim that we can say what went wrong: The 1260-1390 radiocarbon date of the Turin Shroud was the result of a computer hacking!

Stephen E. Jones
----------------------------------
MY POLICIES. Comments are moderated. Those I consider off-topic, offensive or sub-standard will not appear. Except that comments under my latest post can be on any Shroud-related topic. I normally allow only one comment per individual under each one of my posts.